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richard
578 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 09:28:07 AM
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First off, after a long break from all things running I am slowly coming back. I have been popping on every so often to keep up with what people are upto. Anyway back to the topic in hand. Some initial thoughts.
The idea of "LSD" training has been around for a very long time - for some LSD stands for Long Slow Distance I think it is better expressed as Long Steady Distance. What youa re trying to do with LSD training is develop a strong aerobic base. This makes a good launchpad for competing over any distance. The time/distance covered is dependent on the distance you ultimately compete over, but it provides a good base for any athlete. As an example consider the gold medal winner Jamie Staff. He competes on the cylce track over the sprint distances, in the team sprint he is leadoff and so covers just one lap of the track (250M). However if you look at his annual training schedlue the off season period (between the end of one race season and the precompetition phase of his training) 40% of his training is LSD type rides on the road for between 2 - 3 hrs. What he is looking for is a solid aerobic base on which be can build. With this aerobic base he is able to train harder during the precompetition phase, and recover quicker from heavy training sessions. Jamie uses a HRM during these training rides to ensure he is training aerobically - as he likes to ride hard a fast, which would defeat the object of these rides.
Now consider the likes of Lance Armstrong - his LSD type rides last >6hrs and he keeps his HR low, between 125-130 bpm.
The objective for both riders is to build a strong aerobic base.
But is LSD type training sufficient. Depends on the distance you are going to race over, your competitive level, and also your own psychological personality.
Consider the psychological aspect. One of the great British middle distance runners was David Bedford. His training was all LSD type running - 180 mpw. Comparing his times over 10,000m he could beat anyone in the world in his day, as long as he could run each of the 25 laps at the same time. He would fail badly when someone in the race would put in some hard fast laps. Instead of running his own race Dave would try to go with this runner and now he would blow becuase he would go anaerobic and did no anaerobic training. Psychologically he lacked the confidence to run his own race and would try to go with this fast pace. So in big races he often failed because his psychology did not fit his training.
The other aspect of training, that all top athletes follow is the principle of periodisation. Again Jamie Staff breaks his year into different phases, and his training changes from one phase to the next.
Generally there is preperation phase - a lot of aerobic work, this is where Jamie is doing 40% of his training on the road.
Pre-competition - Jamie cuts out the road work, is in the gym 4 days a week lifting very bif weights, and then is on the track the rest of the time. Generally during this phase the teraining becomes more specific for the distance you want to compete over - intervals, hill work, fartlek, etc
Competition - workload decreases, the emphasis is on quality and recovery, not quantity.
Post-Competition - Recovery, some top athletes have a complete break and do something completely different to maintain a level of fitness, but no structured training.
As for training every day - some of the top athletes have at least one day off a week. Just as your year should be periodised, so should your week to week training, hard days/easy days, hard weeks/easy weeks. Remember the benefits of a training session come only if the body is gieven chance to recover and adapt to the increased training load. Again because I know Jamie and quite a bit about his training programme, his rest days mean complete rest, not even walking round the shops - in fact when on BC training camps the coaches patrol the accommodation and raid athletes' rooms to make sure that they are doing nothing except lying on the bed, and the furthest they even walk is to the bathroom, or dining hall. Rest means complete rest.
Richard |
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StephenPrice
2113 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 10:33:59 AM
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| Cheers Richard, very interesting. |
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fishyweb
2311 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 11:04:20 AM
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Yes, that is interesting. Thanks Richard.
P.S. Hope we'll be seeing you around here a bit more now! Best of luck with your return to running.
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Steve
http://www.runsaturday.com/athlete/fishyweb |
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LittleBigMan
1070 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 11:35:20 AM
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Interesting about the BC training camps Richard, where the coaches patrol the accommodation and raid athletes' rooms to ensure they're resting.
I must admit I always do something on my days off, and at minimum a good core session. Whether that's advisable 1-2 days before a big race however I don't know. but I don't feel confident without having done so. I've read about the pro's and cons of doing lots of core work, but what works for me is doing a session after every run too.
I have wondered whether to skip core the day before a race, especially a long race, as we all know its during these runs that the core really matters in terms of helping to maintain form and power transfer. Giving them a day to recover prior to a big race is probably advisable I guess.
Good luck with your return!
*Ooops, just realised I'd missed an entire page of posts in this thread. Sounds like interesting stuff. Thanks Matt et al. I'll have a read of the links later today.
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"The will to win is worthless, without the will to prepare." |
Edited by - LittleBigMan on 16 Oct 2009 12:01:49 PM |
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StephenPrice
2113 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2009 : 08:43:40 AM
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Richard, I have a question about the base training stuff - is it still advisable to take recovery weeks during base training or, because all running is aerobic, is it okay to keep on with the mileage?
Am looking to significantly increase my mileage over the next couple of months and whilst I anticipate it being a bit tiring to begin with, I won't be doing any VO2 or Lactate Threshold sessions. All of my running will be below 80% of heart rate reserve (and most will be 70-75%)
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richard
578 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2009 : 10:21:06 AM
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Stephen if you are doing all aerobic, base training stuff then recovery days and recovery weeks are not so important as long as you are sensible when increasing the load. So off-season base training can be done every day with no need for recovery days/weeks. It is important to be disciplined with this and make sure you use a HRM to keep the HR in the correct zone. What I would suggest that you work on a 4 week cycle for this weeks 1 - 3 gradually increase the mileage/time, then week 4 drop back to the week 1 mileage/time, then start another 4 week cycle starting with your previous week 3 cycle, so you have an easier but not easy week 1 week in 4.
Also it is usually better to work on time not mileage. 2 hrs < 80% HR can have a different effect than 30K < 80%, as now terrain, weather, etc comes into play.
I have to be particularly careful in the choice to routes I use for purely aerobic training as whichever way I go from home there are big hills and to keep in the corect zone on a long hill might involve slowing right down, or even walking. Even harder on a bike as if you go too slow you fall off.
Also when you then introduce higher intensity work do it gradually as you start to utilize muscles and energy systems that have not been used for a while, so the body needs time to adapt to the new training, and this is when the recovery days and weeks are important, so that the body has chance to adjust physiologically to the change in physiological demand, and those fast twitch muscles that are not really used in aerobic training need to get used to doing some work again.
Also when you have a good aerobic base and you start introducing harder sessions it is normally OK to do a hard session the day after your weekly long aerobic run. The recovery days need only be after your harder sessions.
Hope that helps.
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StephenPrice
2113 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2009 : 10:35:51 AM
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it helps tremendously, thank you.
Fortunately I live in an area that if I run east, it's flat, west is hilly. So most of my aerobic running will be on flat routes (will be training for London so hills aren't overly important anyway). Will do some hill work, but keeping it aerobic and using the hills for technique/strength development only.
On time v distance training, I always tend to equate it to distance, with some idea of how the terrain will alter my pace. I'm not really one for just running for a designated amount of time as I like to know where I'm going before I set out (my wife likes to know too in case I "fall in the canal" or something) |
Edited by - StephenPrice on 21 Oct 2009 11:30:45 AM |
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richard
578 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2009 : 10:57:15 AM
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Stephen, sounds like you have the ideal setup for training, flat to the east, hills to the west, so you can vary things. As long as you plan your runs, as you seem to, then running for time or distance is similar. I am going out on this route and it is going to take around 2hrs. That is fine. What we need to avoid in the aerobic phase is decide to go out for a 30K run then realize we are going to be home later than expected and so up the pace, so our 30K run turns into a 20K aerobic warmup to a 10K threshold session to get home in time. This will now have a completely different training effect.
In terms of energy systems aerobic runs are mainly training and improving the metabolism of fat. The fat metabolic pathways will improve with changes taking place within the cells, an increase of fat metabolism enzymes, etc.
Other physiological changes would include more blood capilaries being produced, especially in the neighbourhood of the working muscles.
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StephenPrice
2113 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2009 : 11:32:22 AM
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I'm usually pretty good at sticking to plan so hopefully will reap the benefits of a large aerobic base come February.
thanks again |
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Dips
4077 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2009 : 4:12:07 PM
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Really interesting stuf Richard and good to have you back on board.
Whilst on training camp in Portugal the coaches always bang home time over miles and I try to remember that. Especially when a 10 mile run over the Downs is obviously going to take me longer than a 10 mile run on the Prom...more so because I might walk the larger hills. I questioned what option I should use for a long run, Downs or flat, the answer was to use the Downs as often as possible but to use the flat for the steady/marathon pace stuff.
I also find it easier to do reps by time rather than miles
20 min threshold pace for instance is much simpler.
One of these days I am going to sort out my HR and use my HRM consistantly!
Dips x
"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream." C.S. Lewis
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nramage
19 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2009 : 3:19:17 PM
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Since reading articles in this post have spent time running ONLY at 'easy heart rate' pace...no more than 73% max. Up to then did mixed runs as part of RW 12 week training plans for specific 'races'. Anyway, in the 5 or 6 weeks running only at this 'easy heart rate' pace, my speed at that heart rate has increased from 8.3ish k/h to almost 9k/h.
Also found can now run 10 miles at that easy pace and get home feeling pretty fresh, whilst was previously bit trashed after that distance!
Finally, did a 'test' last night, running my favourite 7k run at previous typical 85% max heart rate pace and found speed at that heart rate also up from 10.5kh to 11!
So....sold on this approach of gaining solid aerobic base and will now go back to only 'easy running' till new year!...target HM in Feb and first longer run (Swiss Alps 31k) in July.
Thanks for the posts! 
Neil
...wish i knew what i know now, when i was younger |
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Heavyweight
1453 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2009 : 6:51:49 PM
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| Nice to hear of your progress Neil. I have been doing similar (with the odd race thrown in) and kind of 'sense' I'm making progress too, although I don't religously measure HR. |
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Hadd
